The Exchange with Ed Stetzer

Villodas arrived with a definition of anxiety that implicates confident leaders as much as worried ones. Stetzer spends most of the hour testing whether a congregation can hold that much internal difference and still teach anything difficult. Why do confident pastors still lead anxiously? Villodas separates anxiety from worry. Worry is a feeling a pastor can honestly deny. Anxiety, as he uses the term, is the automatic response to a real or perceived threat, and it shows up as manipulation, coercion, anger, or avoidance. That definition does real work in the conversation, because it moves the diagnosis away from the visibly stressed pastor and toward the one who cannot leave room for dissent. His own test is whether he can tell a staff member to push back and mean it. When he cannot stand disagreement, he reads that as anxiety rather than conviction. Stetzer sharpens this into something a listener will recognize, noting that pastors can grow worse at formation than the people they lead because they treat sermon preparation as their spiritual life. Drawing on the pastors moving through his cohort, Villodas says the average pastor has no plan for personal formation and is living off someone else's spirituality: podcasts, books, other people's sermons. Can a politically mixed church still teach hard convictions? Villodas describes his congregation as split roughly in thirds between Trump voters, Harris voters, and people who abstained. Stetzer asks the difficult question: does a spread like that indicate a pastor avoiding the sharp edges of Scripture? Villodas responds by saying that a single message cannot form anyone, so a church that wants to hold a hard conviction has to build multiple spaces for conversation, listening, prayer, and self-examination around it. Alignment is a low bar for a pastor to clear. Discipleship is the actual assignment. He frames the pastoral task as creating an environment where difference does not automatically produce disconnection, which he ties to differentiation: staying close to God, to yourself, and to others under high anxiety. He also insists on understanding how people arrived at their conclusions, since depersonalizing someone strips the story that produced the conviction. Where does pastoral burnout actually begin? Burnout, in Villodas’s account, is the attempt to give what you do not have, which is why he starts with relationships rather than Sabbath. Villodas argues that emotional pain persists when there is no relational home to hold it, and he applies this directly to pastors carrying criticism, hard emails, and board conflict without anywhere to put them. Is the narrow path about salvation or discipleship? Villodas grants that Matthew 7 is usually read salvifically, as a statement about how few are saved, and argues instead that Jesus is describing discipleship. He works from three categories he takes from Dale Bruner: successism, moralism, and individualism. Against successism he sets the Beatitudes as a reframing of what counts as blessing. Against individualism he sets love of neighbor as the proof of love for God. He also inverts the usual sequence between prayer and mission, treating mission as a root of formation rather than a result of it, and points to his church's health center, pantry, and youth organizing work as the setting where that formation happens. From the conversation Ed Stetzer: "I'm of the view that pastors sometimes are worse than regular people when it comes to their spiritual formation 'cause they just sort of rely on their preparation as their formation." Rich Villodas: "But anxiety is not simply about worry. Anxiety is what is the automatic response to distress or disagreement." Rich Villodas: "I think the average pastor's living off the spirituality of someone else. Podcasts, other sermons. There's not a cultivation of being with God and speaking out of that place." Rich Villodas: "It's a narrow path that leads to the kind of spacious life that we long for." About Rich Villodas Rich Villodas is the Brooklyn-born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large multiracial church in Queens with more than 75 countries represented. He is the author of The Deeply Formed Life (2020), Good and Beautiful and Kind (2022), and The Narrow Path (2024). Website: https://www.richvillodas.com/ Books and links: https://linktr.ee/richvillodas Instagram: @richvillodas X: @richvillodas Church: https://elmhurst.newlife.nyc/ The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Barna's research puts practicing Christians ahead of the general population in regular AI use, and ahead of the pastors who lead them. David Kinnaman argues the church's answer is not better tips, but a theology of technology, and a clear line between fluency and authority. Are Christians really using AI more than everyone else? Kinnaman opens with a caveat: research is good at telling us what is happening, less good at why. What it shows, he says, is a reversal. Practicing Christians, usually late adopters, are at the leading edge of this one. He cites Barna findings that 44 percent report using AI often or very often, against 31 percent of the US adult average and 29 percent of non-practicing Christians. Ed's framing: leaders still file AI under future issues, while the data puts it in their congregations' ordinary week. Why are pastors more cautious than their congregations? Ed pushes hardest here, asking whether the gap is healthy or a leadership problem. Kinnaman does not concede that caution is wrong, but he does argue pastors are behind. His explanation is sociological rather than theological: practicing Christians are more likely to be parents, volunteers, and members of community groups, so they meet more of the daily friction these tools remove. Pastors use AI too, he says, for ideation and sermon material, with cautions attached. The more consequential finding is what congregants want from their leaders. Not tips and tricks, but a philosophy, a kind of theology of technology. Kinnaman calls that a gap the church can fill, and does not say who fills it otherwise. Should Christians use AI for prayer or spiritual growth? Ed brings the question down to a case. During a recent hospitalization, ChatGPT told him it was praying for him before surgery. He posted about it and heard from the Washington Post. He asks where spiritual engagement with AI should be encouraged and where it should worry us, and Kinnaman declines to draw a bright line. His position is that the question has to be re-asked continuously, because what holds today may not hold in a few months. What he rules out is abstention. He tells a story about sitting out Facebook, and says AI is not that. What does the church have that AI does not? The argument lands on a distinction Kinnaman credits to another leader, whose name the transcript garbles. Language models are fluent, and fluency reads like knowledge because it moves in patterns we recognize. Authorship, not fluency, produces authority: you have standing on a subject because you did the work. The theological turn follows fast. The algorithms are never silent, which trains people to treat God as instantly summonable, a lamp to rub. Kinnaman's counterclaim is that the church holds what no model holds, the human word of forgiveness, spoken by a person, grounded in the cross. Asked what we have underestimated, he names what technology has always offered: comfort and control. From the conversation "So first of all I just think we have to have an adaptive, leaning in posture. This is not a revolution you can sit out." — David Kinnaman "Authorship gives you authority. When you write something from scratch, you have an authority on that subject if you do your work and do your homework." — David Kinnaman "We have to recognize I think this is going to be over the next five years, quite a bulldozer of all the things that we held dear" — David Kinnaman About David Kinnaman David Kinnaman is CEO of Barna Group. Since 1995 he has directed interviews with more than two million individuals and overseen thousands of research studies. He is the author of unChristian, You Lost Me, Good Faith, and Faith For Exiles. The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this special mini-episode, Ed Stetzer shares a brief personal update following an unexpected health issue and surgery over the summer. While he is doing well and making progress in recovery, the official relaunch of the Stetzer Church Leaders podcast is being pushed back by just a couple of weeks to allow for extra healing time. Ed expresses his gratitude for all the support and prayers as he prepares to return with a brand-new season (and YouTube channel) very soon! The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Why do some church members remain deeply committed and generous for years while others quietly drift away from giving? In this episode, Ed Stetzer sits down with Jaclyn Jones, Chief Philanthropic Economist at Masterworks, to unpack the findings of the Faithful Giving Project. Stripping away assumptions about age, income, and education, Jones shares data that reveals a link between a believer’s active spiritual formation and their capacity for sustained generosity.From analyzing the gaps between casual givers and deeply committed disciples to dismantling the fear pastors often have around discussing money from the pulpit, this conversation provides ministry leaders with a fresh perspective on how to view generosity not as a transactional obligation, but as a vital marker of spiritual discipleship.ABOUT OUR GUESTJaclyn Jones serves as Chief Philanthropic Economist at Masterworks. A researcher, speaker, and fundraising strategist, she helps Christian organizations translate donor data into stronger relationships and sustainable revenue growth. The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

While data points to an encouraging rise in spiritual interest and openness across the nation, local congregations face a critical bottleneck: spiritual formation is not keeping pace with spiritual curiosity. In this episode of the Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast, Ed Stetzer sits down with Brad Hill, Chief Partner Success Officer at Gloo, to explore the latest State of the Church research data and dissect the modern trends that every ministry leader must understand to guide people effectively.Hill highlights four critical trends reshaping the landscape of ministry, ranging from an unprecedented spiritual vibe shift among Gen Z—particularly young men—to surprising surges in weekly prayer practices. He also addresses the rapid integration of Artificial Intelligence within the pews, highlighting data showing that one-third of practicing Christians trust AI tools for spiritual guidance just as much as their local pastor. From exploring redemptive uses of emerging technology to shifting success metrics away from traditional "butts, budgets, and baptisms," this conversation provides church leaders with a practical framework to build discipleship in your church.ABOUT OUR GUESTBrad Hill has been deeply involved in solving technology challenges for the church for over 25 years. He serves as Chief Partner Success Officer (www.gloo.com), and is responsible for putting their platform capabilities to work for churches, networks, and the expanding portfolio of brands in the Gloo family.Prior to Gloo, Brad was President at Ministry Brands. As a former church tech founder himself, Brad has the perspective to see and leverage patterns in tech innovation that can help the Church further its mission.In addition to his experience starting, building and coaching companies for Kingdom and business impact, Brad has also served in lay leadership at several churches across multiple denominations.Brad lives in Knoxville, TN with his wife and two kids. The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Why are so many ministry leaders struggling with unhappiness, and how can the tools of behavioral science intersect with Christian theology to bring true joy? In this episode, Ed Stetzer sits down with social scientist, Harvard professor, and bestselling author Arthur Brooks to discuss his latest insights on the science of happiness and its profound implications for church leaders.Brooks unpacks the four pillars of a happy life (faith, family, friendship, and work that serves other people) and addresses why pastors often score low on personal enjoyment despite their high sense of vocational meaning. Tracing the distinctions between worldly pleasure and holy enjoyment, Brooks addresses the reality of spiritual desolation, drawing on the wisdom of St. Ignatius of Loyola to explain why feeling distant from God doesn’t make a leader a fraud. From practical self-management routines to redefining ministry success away from numerical idolatry, this conversation offers pastors a vital roadmap to sustain their inner lives and lead with authentic joy.ABOUT OUR GUESTArthur C. Brooks is a social scientist, author, and speaker known for his work on happiness, leadership, meaning, and human flourishing. He serves as a professor at Harvard University, where he teaches courses on leadership and happiness.Brooks previously served as president of the American Enterprise Institute and has written bestselling books including From Strength to Strength and Build the Life You Want, co-authored with Oprah Winfrey. Drawing from research, personal experience, and moral philosophy, Brooks helps audiences think deeply about purpose, relationships, and well-being. He is a sought-after speaker among business, academic, nonprofit, and faith-based audiences. The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What if our common understanding of heaven and the afterlife misses the plot of the biblical narrative? In this episode, Ed Stetzer connects with biblical scholar and theologian N. T. Wright to talk about his book, God’s Homecoming. Wright explains how popular Christian ideas about escaping the physical world to live in a disembodied heaven are rooted more in Platonism than the text of Scripture.Tracing themes from Genesis to Revelation, Wright highlights God's design for heaven and earth to work together, culminating in a future resurrection and a renewed creation. He discusses the current role of the Holy Spirit in looking after believers between death and the final resurrection, and how the church can act as a local model of this new creation today. For leaders navigating modern ministry, this conversation provides a challenge to align our language, hope, and social action with a historic, biblical framework.ABOUT OUR GUESTN. T. Wright is a leading New Testament scholar, theologian, and former Bishop of Durham in the Church of England. He is widely known for his work on the historical Jesus, the Apostle Paul, resurrection theology, and the kingdom of God. Wright has taught at Oxford, Cambridge, and McGill University and currently serves as Senior Research Fellow at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford.He has written influential books including Simply Christian, Surprised by Hope, and Paul and the Faithfulness of God. Wright is respected for making complex theology accessible to pastors, students, scholars, and everyday Christians around the world. The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What does it mean to be human in an age that celebrates the destruction of the sacred? In this timely episode, Ed Stetzer sits down with renowned historian and author Carl Trueman to discuss his latest work, The Desecration of Man. Following the success of The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, Trueman explores how the rejection of external authority and the ascent of "expressive individualism" have led us to a point where we no longer just ignore meaning—we actively delight in smashing it.From the pervasive influence of technology and AI to the complex ethical landscapes of IVF and surrogacy, Trueman traces the roots of our modern malaise back to thinkers like Rousseau, Freud, and Nietzsche. Together, Ed and Carl wrestle with how the church can offer a "consecrated" alternative, pointing to the Imago Dei as the only stable foundation for human dignity. This is a vital conversation for leaders seeking to navigate a culture that is rapidly reconfiguring the very definition of humanity.ABOUT OUR GUESTCarl Trueman is a theologian, historian, and author known for his work on church history, theology, culture, and the modern self. He serves as a professor at Grove City College and previously taught at Westminster Theological Seminary and the University of Nottingham.Trueman is widely recognized for his thoughtful analysis of contemporary culture through the lens of historic Christianity. His bestselling book The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self has significantly shaped evangelical discussions about identity, expressive individualism, and cultural change. A frequent conference speaker and commentator, Trueman combines scholarly depth and cultural insight as he helps Christians think carefully about faithfulness and truth in a rapidly changing world. The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/news/503438-joby-martin-pastors-understand-grace.html Joby Martin joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to discuss what happens when a church leader has truly been run over by the "grace train" and understands the profound love and grace of God. Last week, we ran our second-most listened to episode of the year, with Jennie Allen. Jennie explains why our emotions are good gifts from God and how that truth fits with the command to take every thought captive. Check out our conversation with her here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/464670-jennie-allen-church-leaders-emotions.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X: https://x.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ "Run Over by the Grace Train: How the Unstoppable Love of God Transforms Everything" by Joby Martin The Church of Eleven22 Check out Joby's website Follow Joby on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get notes on this podcast here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/464670-jennie-allen-church-leaders-emotions.html In our next most listened to episode of 2024, Jennie Allen joins "The Stetzer ChurchLeaders Podcast" to explain why our emotions are good gifts from God and how that truth fits with the command to take every thought captive. Last week, we revisited our conversation with Jon Acuff, who shared why church leaders should wholeheartedly pursue their potential and how they can do so in a way that honors God. Check out our conversation with him here: https://churchleaders.com/podcast/466196-jon-acuff-success-without-destroying-church.html ► Listen on Apple: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-churchleaders-podcast/id988990685 Visit ChurchLeaders Website: https://churchleaders.com Find ChurchLeaders on Facebook: https://facebook.com/churchleaders Follow ChurchLeaders on X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChurchLead Follow ChurchLeaders on Instagram: https://instagram.com/churchlead/ Follow ChurchLeaders on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/churchleaders/ "Get Out of Your Head: Stopping the Spiral of Toxic Thoughts" by Jennie Allen "Untangle Your Emotions: Naming What You Feel and Knowing What to Do About It" by Jennie Allen IF:Gathering Check out Jennie's website Follow Jennie on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, TikTok, and YouTube The Exchange is presented by Gloo, a technology company for the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.