The Contemplative Pastor

What might happen if we decided to stay—in a place, in a community, in a calling? In this episode, join Bryan Rouanzoin and Jess Gracewski for a conversation about what we might gain—and risk—by choosing to commit to a community and a place. Jess describes how she’s building spaces of belonging in one of the most transient cities on earth and choosing to steward people with intention for as long or short a time as they’re in her care. Drawing from her own story, she shares why calling is the work of a community and what it means to discern the voice of God when it's coming from the people around us. Throughout the conversation, Bryan and Jess explore what it means to pastor people to feel known, rather than counted. Jess Gracewski is a spiritual director and Associate Pastor at Reality San Francisco, where she oversees ministries focused on community and spiritual formation, helping others find their place in God's story. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

What happens when we make peace with the reality that there are no ideal conditions in which to pastor? In this episode, join Jay Kim and Glenn Packiam for a conversation on finding “your little patch of the world” to be the pastor God has called you to be. Glenn traces the through line of his “misfit” ministry career and the crisis that led him into Eugene Peterson's mentorship, where he first heard the words he would return to again and again : "there are no ideal conditions in which to live out this vocation." He shares the ebb and flow of spiritual practices that sustain his hidden life with God, the radical approach he took entering a new church, and the "constellation of relationships" he believes every pastor needs to flourish. He and Jay unpack the essential difference between weariness and woundedness—in ourselves and in the people we pastor. Glenn Packiam is the Lead Pastor of Rockharbor Church in Costa Mesa, California. Glenn is the author of several books, including The Resilient Pastor, Blessed Broken Given, and a recent title, What’s a Christian, Anyway? Glenn and his wife Holly live in Orange County, California, with their four children. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give. Mentioned in this conversation: Job 4:5 (MSG) The Contemplative Pastor: Returning to the Art of Spiritual Direction by Eugene Peterson Under the Unpredictable Plant: An Exploration in Vocational Holiness by Eugene Peterson Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity by Eugene Peterson Connecting: The Mentoring Relationships You Need to Succeed in Life by Paul Stanley and Robert Clinton

What if our weariness as pastors isn’t a sign of failure, but rather a sign that we’re measuring success by the wrong metric? In this episode, Bryan Rouanzoin and Bill Dogterom seek to reconcile Jesus’ promise of an “easy yoke” with the pervasive weariness so many pastors experience today. Bill shares how his own weariness sparked a life-changing shift from a church-growth mindset to a formation mindset. He and Bryan discuss the three spiritual practices that help “keep the yoke easy,” why he intentionally distinguishes his personal spirituality from his professional spirituality, and how he recognizes which parts of his soul need care. Bill Dogterom is professor emeritus in the School of Theology & Ministry at Vanguard University. He has served in pastoral ministry for more than 25 years, including as senior pastor of Foothill Christian Center in California. He has also been involved in pastoral ministry in Canada and the United States. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give. Mentioned in this conversation: Sabbath As Resistance: Saying No to the Culture of Now by Walter Brueggemann The Sabbath by Abraham Joshua Heschel Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity by Eugene H. Peterson The Practice of the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence Prayer: Finding the Heart’s True Home by Richard Foster Prayer by Hans Urs von Balthasar The Interior Castle by Teresa of Avila Ruth Burrows Evenlyn Underhill

What if the most vital work of spiritual formation isn’t first in your church, but in the hidden story you’re already living with God? In this episode, join Bryan Rouanzoin and Todd Pickett for a conversation on what it means to truly be a contemplative, and the fruit of a life lived this way. Drawing from Todd’s journey through the university and into the local church, they explore how literature and poetry became his training ground for spiritual formation. Along the way, they discuss the essential questions underneath spiritual formation, every pastor’s temptation to make a name for themselves, and the invitation to let God burn away what Todd calls “our fantasy selves” so we can live as our real selves before God, for the sake of those we shepherd. The Rev. Dr. Todd Pickett (Ph.D.) is pastor of Holy Trinity Anglican Church in Costa Mesa, CA. Prior to his leadership in the pastorate, Dr. Pickett served for 27 years as a professor, Dean of Spiritual Development and campus pastor at Biola University. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

How can we pastor without sacrificing our own souls on the altar of hurry and anxiety? In this episode, join Jay Kim and Alan Fadling for a wide-ranging conversation on the inner pace of pastoral ministry. Drawing from over four decades in ministry, Alan explores what it means to practice the presence — not the absence — of God, to tend conditions rather than just drive results, and to embrace the slow, patient work of becoming unhurried, non-anxious shepherds. Along the way, they reflect on Alan’s simple conviction that, in the end, leadership is love — and love isn’t rushed. Alan Fadling is the President and Founder of Unhurried Living, Inc. in Mission Viejo, California, a Christian non-profit that trains leaders to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. Along with his wife, Gem, he leads PACE, a two-year leadership formation journey. A trained spiritual director and coach with over 30 years of experience, he speaks and consults internationally with organizations like InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Cru, and Saddleback Church. He is the award-winning author of five core books, including An Unhurried Life, An Unhurried Leader, and A Non-Anxious Life, and is currently working on a forthcoming book on contemplative leadership. He lives in California with his family. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

What if your primary pastoral work isn’t building the Kingdom, but becoming the kind of person the Kingdom can flow through? In this episode, join Jay Kim and AJ Sherrill for a conversation about contemplative pastoring in an age of efficiency and comparison. In this conversation, Jay and AJ explore the costly link between efficiency and love, why we often settle for relief instead of true renewal, and how practices like silence, examen, Sabbath, and personality-aware disciplines can help us live at a slower, more human pace. Along the way, they return to the simple, challenging invitation to become pastors who are with God before we are ever at work for God. AJ Sherrill has more than twenty five years of experience as a pastor, leading churches in cities such as NYC, LA, and also as lead pastor at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is now lead pastor at St. Peter's Church in Charleston, South Carolina. He has served as adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he teaches popular courses on transformational preaching and the Enneagram. Sherrill receives many speaking requests to lead Enneagram workshops across the country and is the author of The Enneagram for Spiritual Formation and Being with God. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

How can we suffer personally and alongside others without losing our joy? In this episode, join John Mark Comer and John Ortberg for the second part of their conversation exploring the possibilities and pitfalls in the pastoral vocation. In these final movements of the interview, John shares honestly about healing from wounding, what we can do when we are joy-challenged and what will matter in the end. This session was held at the Practicing the Way Pastor Conference in Los Angeles, California, in 2026. John Ortberg is a pastor, author, and speaker. He’s been in ministry for over 40 years and teaches around a central theme of spiritual formation. John is a deep believer that the main thing God gets out of your life is the person you become. He desires for people to know God in an interactive, life-transforming way. Presently, John leads the ministry Become New, focused on helping you grow spiritually one day at a time. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

What is my shadow mission? In this episode, join John Mark Comer and John Ortberg as they explore the possibilities and pitfalls in the pastoral vocation. They discuss the dangers of over-relying on giftedness, the importance of detaching from outcomes, and the power of identifying what John refers to as a "shadow mission"— what your life could be if it veers just a few degrees off course. This session was held at the Practicing the Way Pastor Conference in Los Angeles, California, in 2026. John Ortberg is a pastor, author, and speaker. He’s been in ministry for over 40 years and teaches around a central theme of spiritual formation. John is a deep believer that the main thing God gets out of your life is the person you become. He desires for people to know God in an interactive, life-transforming way. Presently, John leads the ministry Become New, focused on helping you grow spiritually one day at a time. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

How is this era in church history inviting us into creative exploration? In this episode, Tyler Staton invites us to recover a renewed sense of pastoral imagination. Drawing from the creation account in Genesis, he reflects on God as a creator and artist, considering what it means for pastors to participate in God's enduring work to cultivate life, beauty, and renewal. This teaching calls us to step off the treadmill of urgency and to join God boldly and creatively in the here and now. This session was held at the Practicing the Way Pastor Conference in Los Angeles, California, in 2026. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.

Is there a gap between our public and private life? In this episode, Gemma Ryan invites us to consider the hidden life beneath our ministry and leadership. Through the practices of solitude, secrecy, and confession, she explores the narrowing gap between who we are in public and who we are when no one is watching. With honesty and tenderness, she shares deeper questions about our work and activities, calling us away from performance and towards a quieter, humbler life lived before God alone. This session was held at the Practicing the Way Pastor Conference in Los Angeles, California, in 2026. To find more resources and experiences tailored just for you—the pastor—visit practicingtheway.org/pastor. This podcast and its episodes are free, thanks to the generosity of The Circle and other givers. You can learn more about The Circle or contribute toward future resources like this podcast at practicingtheway.org/give.